Friday, January 9. 2009Why will more tax payer money be wasted on ESC research in 2009?Trackbacks
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You clearly do not know much about science.
All our clinical research depends on previous basic research. Basic research is not (usually) profitable--it's studying stuff because it might one day be profitable--putting new tools into the toolboxes of those who do clinical work. You cannot fund it with venture capital. We need to know HOW stem cells specialize. All the details. How do they sense their environment and change to fit into it? If we could learn this, we could do things like mass-grow transplantable organs in factories. From the basic science point of view, any question you can ask about adult stem cells, umbilical stem cells, and genetically de-specialized cells--any experiment you can do, any measurement you can make--is worth doing or making or asking about embryonic stem cells too. What's different about the embryonic cells? Why do they make tumors if you transplant them? This is not "likely going nowhere". It is an essential basic science question. If you don't want to fund it, go live in a non-scientific country. Move to the Philippines. You'd like it there--the Constitution guarantees the right to life for unborn babies, and they jail abortion patients as well as abortion docs, for up to six years.
Thank-you for the comment. I understand science very well.
I know what basic science is, but embryonic stem cell research isn't about basic science. Most American were told that we must destroy human embryos FOR CURES, and that we need to fund this research with our tax dollars. The only way most Americans are comfortable with the destruction of nascent human life is if other lives will be saved. I am sure most Americans would not be okay with giving scientists millions of their dollars to rip open embryos just to ask questions that can be answered with iPS cells.
Oh, great. SoMG has found a she/he/it actually hasn't been banned from yet.
"From the basic science point of view, any question you can ask about adult stem cells, umbilical stem cells, and genetically de-specialized cells--any experiment you can do, any measurement you can make--is worth doing or making or asking about embryonic stem cells too." Not really, since, as we know, embryonic human beings must currently be destroyed in order to obtain ESCs. This is not remotely true of ASCs or iPSCs. Were it not for the huge ethical problem with ESCR, no one would have any qualms about studying them, even though they're not as promising as ASCs and iPSCs. You're attempting to divorce all ethics from science, which puts you in pretty ugly company from the 20th Century. Want me to be more specific?
Sorry for a late reply!
MMD, you wrote: "I understand science very well. " Really? Where was your most recent lab/research job? What did you do? You wrote: "... embryonic stem cell research isn't about basic science." Yes, it is. You wrote: "Most American were told that we must destroy human embryos FOR CURES, and that we need to fund this research with our tax dollars." And so we do. The cures come later. All the cures we have today come from basic science before, and all future cures will come from basic science now. And everyone who is serious knows this. If you think Michael J. Fox and Muhammed Ali think they're gonna get cured, you're wrong. You wrote: "The only way most Americans are comfortable with the destruction of nascent human life is if other lives will be saved." And they will. Later. Meanwhile, we will know more about what we are. You wrote: "I am sure most Americans would not be okay with giving scientists millions of their dollars to rip open embryos just to ask questions that can be answered with iPS cells." Right. You do it in order to answer questions that CANNOT be answered with other non-specialized or de-specialized cells. Like, what's different about the ESCs from the others? etc. Rebecca, you wrote: "embryonic human beings must currently be destroyed in order to obtain ESCs. This is not remotely true of ASCs or iPSCs. Were it not for the huge ethical problem with ESCR, no one would have any qualms about studying them, even though they're not as promising as ASCs and iPSCs." Excuse me. This exchange started with the claim that studying ESCs was wasteful and pointless, not that it was unethical. The ethical question is a different question. You wrote: "You're attempting to divorce all ethics from science, ..." No, not all ethics. Only YOUR ethics.
Actually I have worked in molecular biology labs for over 10 years in both research and clinical settings, but that is really not relevant. Even if I was a garbage truck driver, as an American tax payer I have every right to question where my tax dollars are spent.
Research on embryos is not basic science. Even James Thomson legendary ESC researchers admits he only began working on embryos because of the perceived BENEFIT in the form of cures, which he thought outweighed the moral issues. He consulted 2 experts in ethics before he began his research. My point is when there are serious ethical concerns, (and yes even Thomson believes there are serious ethical concerns surrounding embryo destructive research), there had better be a really good concrete reasons to fund that research with the hard earned dollars of Americans, many of whom find destroying embryos for parts repugnant. When experts are telling you that it my be impossible to ever make ESCs safe for use in humans, we had better the question the wisdom of using more precious research dollars to fund it. I am the first to admit that we should oppose embryo-destructive funding for ethical reasons, but I am certainly free to point out that there are practical reasons as well. As for your insinuation that I am imposing my ethics on you or the science establishment, it is actually the other way around. ESC research is perfectly legal in the US. My post said nothing of making research on embryos illegal so I have not advocated imposing anything on anyone. You want me to pay for research that I think is morally wrong, but you think is OK. It is actually you that is imposing your ethics on me. If you want to give money to embryo-destructive research you are free to do so.
Rebecca, yes, research on embryos IS basic science. You're just wrong about that. It's called embryology (doioioioi!).
You wrote: "James Thomson legendary ESC researchers admits he only began working on embryos because of the perceived BENEFIT in the form of cures, which he thought outweighed the moral issues. " Yes, one of the motivators for basic research is the prospect of getting cures. LATER. And it may well be that Thompson was hoping for short-term clinical applications when he started, but a) he's only one guy, and b) it's all basic research TODAY. You wrote: "I am the first to admit that we should oppose embryo-destructive funding for ethical reasons, but I am certainly free to point out that there are practical reasons as well." Yes, under the First Amendment you're free to say anything you want--true, false, or stupid. You wrote: "When experts are telling you that it my be impossible to ever make ESCs safe for use in humans, we had better the question the wisdom of using more precious research dollars to fund it." You're right, we should question the wisdom, and when we do, we will rapidly come to understand that basic-science questions are worth answering even if they don't lead to clinical use in humans. You wrote: "You want me to pay for research that I think is morally wrong, but you think is OK. It is actually you that is imposing your ethics on me. " Yes, and by having the government pay for obstetric care for right-to-lifers, you're imposing yours on me. (I believe right-to-lifers should not reproduce, and I find repugnant the idea that my tax dollars are being used to help them do so.) If you don't like it, move to the Philippines.
If you can equate government funding for the destruction of nascent human life with providing OB care, then logic really is not your strong suit. I think you need to brush up on that a little.
Rebecca, I didn't equate them. I just pointed out that just as I am inflicting my ethics on you by making you fund abortion, just so, you are inficting yours on me by making me fund right-to-lifers reproducing. That's not equating the two.
I agree that ONE of us needs to brush up on logic.
"I agree that ONE of us needs to brush up on logic. " Well on that point we will have to agree to disagree
As a side note, I do not think the federal government should be funding any health care or research. That should be left up to the states. That way if you do not like where your tax dollars are going, you CAN move somewhere else. As of now, as a U.S. citizen, you are pretty much stuck. |
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